Zionism Alert Level

For the web-savvy anti-Zionist in you. This is the sort of stuff that makes me want to be not religious anymore.



Zionism Threat Level Alert provided by True Torah Jews.

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28 thoughts on “Zionism Alert Level

  1. I know how you feel. You checked out that Frumteens site? Same bull-shit. It makes me sick too, but then I think that I pity these people for not knowing better and that they’ll regret it later. I know it.
    -OC

  2. o.k cmon – these people along with the Neturay Karta- are very very very very very much so a minority of the religious world. Even in the charedi world ( one i grew up in) there is a great support of Israel . Yes i know they will get all hyper on yom haatzmaut and say they don’t support Zionism – but at the end of the day – they read the same newspapers worriedly about what is going in Israel, say tehillim for Israel, and complain about the bias in the media against Israel. A few crazies who claim to be religious is not a reason to want to chuck religion . trust me there are better reasons.

  3. I think it’s great! Comparing Zionism to Terrorism is the only way to stop these G-D awful crimes.

    It doens’t suprise in the least, read what I wrote about this web site frumteens.com, not such a small group (and a very loud one at that), after looking through a bit more I found out that I as a zionist living in Israel am an Idol worshiper an Apikores and worse than Hamas all wrapped into one big bundle of EVIL that is doomed to burn in hell.. oh well at least I will be in good company (95% of the Jews fall into that category)

  4. I’m surprised that you, with your interest in journalism, object to their right of free speech…after all, even in a democratic Israel, these people, as warped as their views may be, can speak their mind. I’m sure you also do know that they are a minority, and their views don’t really reflect a “religious” view, but just a narrow-minded and archaic philosophy…which you could counter the most by possibly strengthening your own “religious” views of Zionism, and prove them wrong. There’s more of you than them.

  5. are there really more of me than them? there’s alot of them.

    and ‘archaic philosophy’ and ‘narrow mindedness’ can just as well be describing other traditional orthodox beliefs, like kosher and shabbat. so it’s not like you can just dismiss their opinions like that. these people have greats like rav hutner and elya svei on their side. what i meant about these people sometimes making me not want to be religious anymore was that once i’m telling rav hutner that i think his opinions on israel are ‘arachaic and outdated’ why can’t i tell him the same for his opinions on kosher and shabbat?

  6. ok, this isn’t really directed at any of the postings over here, but it’s just something i’ve been wanting to let out for some time now, and i figured here would be an interesting place to say it. oh and mendy, sup dude- you rock! here goes… maybe this is over simplifying the whole “zionism” argument… but isn’t it a mitzvah to live in israel? So what if Herzl thought we should move to Uganda!!! He wasn’t a Torah Jew!!! He was a journalist! What the hell did he know about Mitzvos?!??!? So what if a bunch of Satmars march with Palestinians?!?! That’s what their rabbincal authority tells them to do, just like how Judiasm’s been going for the past however many thousand years- the Rabbi says, we do! When it comes down to it, living in the land of Israel is one of the taryag!!! I don’t think that’s such an arguable point. Now let’s all spread the word about that little fact and then we can all agree and stop fighting about our political views and what zionism really means, because zionism means alot of different things to alot of different people. And even though plenty of our rabbincal authority have argued about what actually makes up the taryag mitzvos, in my miniscule amount of Torah knowledge, I guess that all of them accept that we need that land that good ol’ G-d gave us a couple thousand years ago to keep his Torah. I mean, what else did He give it to us for? Shawarma and Burger’s Bar?

  7. ” actually, living in israel is not one of the taryag. it’s not on the rambam’s list of mitzvot.”

    Menachem, you are correct that it is not on the Rambam’s list. The RambaN however does include it(addition to sefer hamitzvot mitzvat ase #4). Apparently the reason the Rambam left it out is because he does not count “general” mitzvot(see the shorashim at the begining of sefer hamitzvot). For the same reason, the Rambam does not consider Teshuva a mitzvah (he mentions vidui). If you enter “rambam mitzvah of living in israel” in google you’ll get a lot of articles written on the topic.

  8. yeah… im very familiar with the argument. i think the fact that the rambam doesnt include it in taryag weakens the zionist argument alot… even with all the reasons you could cite, it seems very apologetic, and like you’re just coming up with excuses.

    i think aliya should be more than just a religious decision.

  9. well, whether it’s part of the taryag or not, i think my point was pretty clear either way you look at it- that the land of Israel is rooted in the Torah, and which we as Jews live by that Torah, we should probably have some connection with the land of Israel. Maybe we can’t have a connection to everything in the Torah, but Israel- we got that, at least we should take advantage. And what else should the decision be based on if not just religious issues?!?! If someone’s not Jewish or religious and is just moving to Israel to join Peace Now or UNICEF or whatever, then good for them… but then what shaichus do they have to zionism anyway? Or if they’re just moving to Israel cuz they think it’s a nice place to live, kol hakavod!!! Let everyone move to Israel!!! but as people who keep the Torah, i can’t think of any more important reason to move to Israel than to be able to live the rest of my life as a better Torah Jew. Call that Zionism or call that whatever you want… but i just call it trying to be a good Jew. now if you ask why i’m not there yet, choose you’re reason: a)i’ll move after i get married. b)i’ll move when i finish college. c)maybe i just needa grow a pair.

  10. i know it’s c. i know i don’t have the guts to make aliya… but some day i’ll conjure up enough betzim to do it.

  11. mordy, it does matter what you call living in israel- yishuv eretz yisrael is NOT synonomous with Zionism. here i disagree with menachem that the fact that yishuv eretz yisrael is not necc. a taryag weakens the zionist argument because zionism is not necc. or mainly about yishuv eretz yisrael. Zionism is an ideology that involves nationalism – a zionist believes that jews need to live together as a nation and build a society here- you can live very happily in ramat beit shemesh , only speak english and have very little to do with the wider israeli society and be fulfilling yishuv eretz yisrael. but i would not necc. call you a zionist. I have often heard the argument from charedim that they are the “real zionists” i really disagree – Zionism is about becoming an AM connecting to one another. So menachem might say ” i’m right the zionists have a weaker RELIGIOUS argument and this should be about more than religion” but i think that the zionists ideals are deeply rooted in the tanach and in the halachik ideology ( rav soloveichicks Halachik man- the idea that we are not about just spiritual existence but halacha makes us connect to/redeem the physical world hence we can’t just say we are an AM based on our spiritual connection i.e. the torah but it has to actually express itself in something real and physical)

  12. Mordy, I have to say that I don’t really think that it takes so much beitzim to do it. I made Aliyah in November, and after everything every-one told me about how hard and difficult a decision it is, I have to say that it really wasn’t as big a deal as I thought it was going to be. I made the decision. I got on the plane, and that was it. I guess, once I put myself in the mind-set that this was something I wanted to do…it really didn’t end up being that big of a deal. I get frustrated with the hebrew, though. Especially with reading. I feel like a 5 year old learning how to read all over again. But, if it’s worth it and you want it badly enough, it’s actually not that hard. Hope that helps.
    -OC

  13. Krak- I agree that it’s all about how you define zionsim. R’ Freifeld (founder of shar yoshuv) made a clear disitinction in a speech he made 20 some-odd years ago about secular zionism and real zionism (yeshuv eretz yisrael). someone asked him if he should buy israeli bonds or not and R’ Freifeld said specificaly that of course we should buy israeli bonds. However, he also told a story of how he once asked a chiloni israeli kid if he would marry an arab girl,and the kid answered, “if i love her, why not.” He told the kid that he’s a trader to his people. He asked him whats the difference between him marrying an arab girl and going across the enemy lines to give information to enemy. So you’re gonna tell me that zionism is about creating an am? Meanwhile, even the chareidim in israel dont get along, the feuds that still exist between sefardim and ashkenazim. then the rightests and leftists, chabadniks and na-nachs, you name the group- they’ve all got a problem with someone!!! that’s called living together and creating an am? so that’s called zionism? or is connecting to each other bumming smokes off the arssy at the trempiata? israeli’s used to have another word for shtuyot back in the day- the word was tzionut! what other country in the world would use the same word for crap and patriotism? ask the random israeli kid if he knwos who jabotinski was, or some other original “zionist.” i wodner how many of them actually know. maybe it’s a question somewhere on the bogrot, but im not sure. but come one- what american doesn’t know who george washington and abraham lincoln are?!!? so who cares about this country? who is the real tzioni these days?!?! you’re gonna tell me that the dude who left his homeland and a nice well paying job and all of his immediate family to go to a foreign country to have a job that pays half as much and live in an apartment a quarter the size of his old one is not a tzioni cuz he lives in RBS and speaks english for 75% of his day?!?! how much hebrew do you speak throughout the day? Oh yeah, and creating a great society, i almost forgot… you knwo how many jails there are in israel? you know how many of those jails are filled with jewish robbers and murderers? i’m sure you’ve read R’ kahane’s preface to his book “they must go”, while writing from ramle prison- “i doubt that there had been a total of four jewish murders in the 2,000 years of exile in yemen.” He gives his opinion that muslims could not corrupt the sefardi jew for a thousand years, however the israeli establishment did it in less than 25. Do you know how often stabbings occur in Isreali public schools? I’m sure you heard about the Israeli crime families. I mean, come on- like i said earlier, if you love israel b/c of the shawarma and burger’s bar, gimme a break- might as well stay in america and drive a nicer car. israel is not about it’s society to a real ziony. cuz frankly i think that to a torah jew, israeli culture and society is prbbly not something to be particularly proud of(don’t get me wrong, im not dissing israeli music, art, theatre, all that stuff- but i don’t have to move to israel to enjoy it). you want culture, democracy, all that wonderful american stuff, then stay in america… but if you wanna live in g-d’s country, then move to israel(not florida)

  14. agreed. there’s alot about israeli society that sucks. all the more reason to be a zionist. the boy who said he would marry an arab and other israelis that would take the first ticket out of israel are not really zionists according to my definition. they are fulfilling yishuv eretz yisrael. the point is as i said : becoming a nation- and yes doing that means having a common culture- langauge- but the ultimate point is creating a just good society. the fact that we are not nearly there yet does not mean that we shouldn’t be striving for it. you are saying everything sucks so lets retreat to our own daled amot and just be a good jew. i am saying no way zionism means plunging in and creating and building! i did not in anyway mean to put down someone who sacrafices so much to come live in rbs and only speaks english. they are doing a great mitzva and i don’t think i can really seperate so neatly btwn yishuv eretz yisrael and zionism= because no matter what if you move here you are automatically contributing to society/the economy . especially raising good honest kids affects the flavor of society here in a very positive way. what i am saying is that the IDEOLOGY of zionism is not just about sitting in your own daled amot- it involves engaging the society. in the words of rav kook ” the pure tsadikim do not complain about wickedness they increase righteousness”

  15. that’s exactly what i was waiting to hear!!! a real zionist cares about the people of the land above all besides the land itself!!! now let’s stop wasting time and all go grab a pair of tefillin and stand on a street corner in kholon!!! i’m so happy those dudes are spreading out and that other people started doing it besides chabad… let’s get more kiruv in g-d’s country!!!! and over the course of this discussion i’ve come to realize, this is what people should really be spending their energy on instead of argueing over what zionism means who is or isn’t one. well, shabbat shalom blog people!

  16. i wrote two sentences, i’ll have you know. but you’re right about that. i feel a little weird that a post like this attracts so many comments, while a thought out, well written, and humorous post like the phone number one above barely garners double digits. a little depressing.

    i havent posted in over a week, i’m gonna put something up tomorrow, inshalla.

  17. Those against zionism, talk about the prohabition of making a state prematurely.

    They’re Not talking about indevidually residing there. They say it’s okay to reside there as indeviduals, just not as a nation until after mashiach comes.

  18. anon, mind leaving a name next time? anti-statehood anti-zionism is just as bad, and it’s exactly what i’m talking about. there are some people who call themselves religious that i just find so disgusting

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